Army 35P Cryptologic Linguist to Civilian: Complete Career Transition Guide (With Salary Data)

Bottom Line Up Front

Army 35P Cryptologic Linguists transitioning out—your language skills combined with intelligence training make you one of the most specialized and valued professionals in the intelligence community. Your foreign language proficiency, SIGINT voice intercept operations, translation and transcription of foreign communications, cultural expertise, linguistic analysis, and ability to extract intelligence from foreign language materials make you extremely sought after by federal agencies and defense contractors. Realistic first-year salaries range from $90,000-$130,000 with NSA or defense contractors, scaling to $130,000-$180,000 with mid-career positions including language bonuses, and $180,000-$220,000+ for senior linguist positions or specialized roles. Your TS/SCI clearance plus critical language skills are worth $30,000-$50,000 in combined salary premiums and language bonuses.

As a 35P, you didn't just "speak another language." You intercepted, transcribed, and analyzed foreign language communications in real-time operational environments. You identified threats from voice intercepts. You provided immediate linguistic intelligence to tactical commanders. You conducted cultural analysis and regional expertise. You translated complex technical and political conversations. You operated SIGINT collection systems while performing real-time linguistic analysis. That's signals intelligence, foreign language expertise, cultural intelligence, and technical analysis—an extremely rare and valuable skill combination.

The critical advantage: Your language plus SIGINT combination is exactly what NSA, defense contractors, and federal agencies desperately need. Critical language speakers with TS/SCI clearances and operational intelligence experience are in severe shortage. Language bonuses alone can add $5,000-$25,000 annually to your base salary. Companies and agencies are competing for linguists like you.

What Does a 35P Cryptologic Linguist Do?

As a 35P, you conducted signals intelligence operations in your target language(s), intercepting and analyzing foreign voice communications to identify threats, enemy capabilities, and tactical/strategic intelligence. You operated SIGINT collection systems to monitor and record foreign communications. You transcribed, translated, and analyzed voice communications in real-time, producing SIGINT reports on immediate threats and intelligence requirements. You identified speakers, assessed conversations for intelligence value, and recognized technical terminology, geographic references, and cultural context. You maintained language proficiency through continuous study and immersion.

Your responsibilities included monitoring specific targets using NSA procedures, conducting real-time linguistic analysis of intercepted communications, producing intelligence reports from foreign language materials, identifying and reporting time-sensitive threats, collaborating with SIGINT analysts and other intelligence disciplines, maintaining strict classification protocols, and continuously improving language proficiency through training and study. You often worked with sensitive technical systems in high-pressure operational environments where linguistic accuracy was critical.

This role required native-level or near-native language proficiency, cultural and regional expertise, SIGINT technical knowledge, analytical thinking, attention to linguistic detail, ability to work under pressure during live operations, excellent memory and concentration, and TS/SCI clearance with access to highly sensitive SIGINT operations.

Skills You've Developed That Translate to Civilian Careers

Technical Linguist Skills

Foreign Language Proficiency (ILR 2+/3+) = High-demand skill across government, defense, diplomacy, business, and translation services

SIGINT Voice Intercept Operations = NSA operations, defense contractor SIGINT linguist support, technical intelligence roles

Real-Time Translation & Interpretation = Government translation/interpretation, diplomatic interpretation, business translation

Transcription & Document Exploitation = Translation services, media localization, subtitle translation, document translation

Cultural & Regional Expertise = International business, government regional analysis, NGO work, cultural consulting

Linguistic Analysis & Pattern Recognition = Data linguistics, computational linguistics, natural language processing

Intelligence Reporting in Foreign Languages = Intelligence analyst roles, regional analyst positions, foreign intelligence services liaison

Technical Terminology Translation = Specialized technical translation (defense, aerospace, technology, legal)

Professional Skills

Critical Language Skills = Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Farsi, Korean, Pashto, Dari, Urdu (massive competitive advantage)

Cultural Intelligence = International business operations, diplomacy, multinational corporations, NGO work

Working Under Pressure with High-Stakes Translation = Crisis translation, diplomatic interpretation, emergency services translation

Security Clearance + Language Skills = Rare combination worth $30K-$50K+ in salary premiums

Attention to Linguistic Detail = Quality assurance, legal translation, technical documentation

Shift Operations & 24/7 Availability = Operational environments, emergency response translation, global business support

Top Civilian Career Paths for 35P Cryptologic Linguists

National Security Agency (NSA) Cryptologic Linguist (perfect mission alignment, excellent pay with language bonuses)

Civilian job titles:

• Cryptologic Language Analyst
• Language Analyst
• Signals Intelligence Linguist
• Foreign Language Analyst
• Voice Language Analyst
• Regional Linguistic Analyst

Salary ranges:

• Entry-level (pay band 2): $75,000-$105,000 base + locality pay (Fort Meade 30%+) = $97,000-$137,000
• PLUS Language bonus: $5,000-$25,000 annually (depending on language proficiency and criticality)
• Total entry compensation: $102,000-$162,000
• Mid-career (pay band 3): $105,000-$145,000 + locality + language = $145,000-$210,000
• Senior (pay band 4): $145,000-$200,000+ + locality + language = $195,000-$285,000+

What translates directly:

• Everything. You're doing the exact same job as an NSA cryptologic linguist that you did as a 35P
• SIGINT voice intercept and analysis
• Target language proficiency
• NSA systems and procedures (you've already worked with these)
• Cultural and regional expertise
• Your TS/SCI clearance

Certifications needed:

• Language proficiency (ILR 2+ minimum, ILR 3 preferred—you likely have this)
• DLPT scores (Defense Language Proficiency Test—document your current scores)
• Active TS/SCI clearance (mandatory)
• CI polygraph (required for most NSA positions)
• Bachelor's degree (preferred but not always required for linguist positions)

Reality check: NSA is Fort Meade, Maryland (primary), with smaller facilities in Georgia, Hawaii, Texas, and Colorado. Most cryptologic linguist positions are at Fort Meade.

Your 35P experience makes you exactly who NSA wants—you already operate their systems, understand SIGINT procedures, and have the clearance. NSA has continuous hiring needs for critical language speakers (Arabic, Chinese, Farsi, Russian, Korean, Pashto, Dari, Urdu).

Language bonuses are significant and vary by language criticality and proficiency level:

• ILR 2: $5,000-$10,000 annually
• ILR 3: $10,000-$20,000 annually
• ILR 4: $15,000-$25,000 annually
• Multiple languages: bonuses can stack

Hiring timeline: 12-18 months including background investigation, CI polygraph, language testing, and clearance adjudication.

Work environment: Some positions are shift work (24/7 operations), others are standard business hours. Overtime opportunities exist. Mission is continuing SIGINT linguist work at strategic level—supporting national intelligence rather than tactical operations.

Federal benefits are excellent: pension after 20 years, TSP matching, health insurance, language training to maintain/improve proficiency, and clear career progression.

Best for: 35P linguists who want to continue SIGINT mission, prefer government stability, and want excellent compensation combining base salary + language bonuses.

Defense Contractor Cryptologic Linguist (high pay, fast hiring, operational work)

Civilian job titles:

• Cryptologic Linguist
• SIGINT Linguist
• Language Analyst
• Voice Linguist
• Translation Specialist (SIGINT)
• Foreign Language Analyst
• Regional Linguist

Salary ranges:

• Entry-level (0-3 years): $90,000-$120,000 + language bonuses
• Mid-career (3-7 years): $120,000-$160,000 + bonuses
• Senior-level (7-12 years): $160,000-$190,000 + bonuses
• Lead/Principal (12+ years): $190,000-$230,000+ + bonuses
• OCONUS positions: Add 25-40% for overseas assignments

What translates directly: Everything. You're performing the same cryptologic linguist work as a contractor that you did as a 35P, supporting NSA, military units, and intelligence agencies.

Certifications needed:

• Active TS/SCI clearance (absolutely required)
• DLPT scores (ILR 2+ minimum, ILR 3 strongly preferred)
• Security+ or equivalent (required for many DoD contracts—$400-600)
• Bachelor's degree (preferred for some contracts, waived for experience on others)
• CI polygraph (required for NSA-supporting contracts)

Companies actively hiring 35P linguists:

• Leidos (major NSA linguist contracts)
• CACI International (extensive linguist support)
• Booz Allen Hamilton
• BAE Systems
• General Dynamics IT (GDIT)
• SAIC
• Peraton
• ManTech
• L3Harris
• Parsons
• PAE
• Amentum
• KeyW Corporation
• Translation Excellence, Inc.
• ATS (Applied Technical Solutions)

Reality check: Most contractor cryptologic linguist positions are at Fort Meade (supporting NSA), with additional positions at other NSA sites, military installations, and OCONUS locations (Middle East, Europe, Asia-Pacific).

Contractors often work alongside NSA civilians doing identical work but earning 15-25% more base salary. Language bonuses are typically built into total compensation rather than separate payments.

Contracts last 3-5 years with options to extend. The linguist market is strong—critical languages are always in demand. If one contract ends, experienced linguists with active clearances find new positions quickly.

OCONUS positions pay significantly more ($150K-$250K+) but require 6-12 month rotations away from family, often in combat zones or high-threat environments. Post-Afghanistan/Iraq, OCONUS linguist positions decreased but still exist in Middle East, Africa, and Asia-Pacific.

Best for: 35P linguists wanting maximum salary, faster hiring than federal government, and operational flexibility.

Federal Government Translation & Interpretation (diplomatic, law enforcement, immigration)

Civilian job titles:

• Contract Interpreter (State Department)
• Federal Court Interpreter
• FBI Linguist
• DEA Linguist
• Immigration Services Officer (language specialty)
• State Department Language Analyst

Salary ranges:

• FBI Linguist (GS-9 to GS-13): $60,000-$115,000 + 25% (if Law Enforcement) + language bonuses = $85,000-$155,000
• State Department Contract Interpreter: $75-$200+ per hour (varies by language, assignment type)
• Federal Court Interpreter (Staff): $55,000-$95,000
• Contract Court Interpreter: $60-$180 per hour
• DEA Linguist: $65,000-$120,000 + bonuses

What translates directly:

• Language proficiency and translation skills
• Working with classified or sensitive materials
• Cultural expertise
• Real-time interpretation abilities
• Security clearance (advantage for State Department, FBI, DEA)

Reality check: Federal translation/interpretation is different from SIGINT work—you're translating diplomatic communications, legal proceedings, law enforcement investigations, or immigration interviews rather than intercepting enemy communications.

State Department interpreters support diplomatic missions worldwide. FBI/DEA linguists support criminal investigations and counterterrorism. Federal court interpreters translate legal proceedings.

Compensation varies widely—staff positions offer federal benefits and stability, contract positions pay higher hourly rates but less job security. Critical language speakers (Arabic, Chinese, Russian, Pashto, Dari) are in high demand.

Best for: 35P linguists interested in diplomatic or law enforcement applications of language skills, want federal government stability, and prefer non-combat intelligence work.

Commercial Translation & Interpretation Services (business applications, high flexibility)

Civilian job titles:

• Professional Translator
• Conference Interpreter
• Consecutive Interpreter
• Localization Specialist
• Media Translator (subtitles, dubbing)
• Literary Translator
• Technical Translator (legal, medical, technical)

Salary ranges:

• Entry-level translator (staff): $50,000-$70,000
• Experienced translator (staff): $70,000-$95,000
• Freelance translator: $0.10-$0.30+ per word ($30,000-$100,000+ annually depending on volume)
• Conference interpreter: $400-$800+ per day
• High-end technical translator: $80,000-$130,000
• Localization project manager: $90,000-$140,000

What translates directly:

• Translation and interpretation skills
• Cultural knowledge
• Attention to linguistic detail
• Working under deadlines

Industries hiring:

• Translation agencies (Lionbridge, TransPerfect, SDL, LanguageLine Solutions)
• Tech companies (Google Translate, Microsoft, Amazon—localization)
• Media companies (Netflix, Disney—subtitle/dubbing translation)
• Legal services (court and legal document translation)
• Medical services (patient interpretation, medical document translation)
• International business (multinational corporations needing translation services)

Certifications:

• ATA Certification (American Translators Association—professional credential)
• Court interpreter certification (state-specific for legal interpretation)
• Medical interpreter certification (for healthcare translation)

Reality check: Commercial translation pays less than cleared SIGINT linguist work but offers maximum flexibility—work from home, choose your clients, set your schedule. Many former military linguists do commercial translation part-time while building other careers.

Freelance translation income varies dramatically based on language pair, specialization, and client base. English-Arabic, English-Chinese, and English-Russian translators command higher rates. Technical specialization (legal, medical, technical) pays more than general translation.

No clearance required, meaning complete geographic flexibility. However, you'll earn significantly less than cleared intelligence linguist positions.

Best for: 35P linguists wanting work-life flexibility, entrepreneurial mindset, or supplemental income while building other careers.

Corporate Intelligence & International Business (business applications of language + intelligence skills)

Civilian job titles:

• International Business Analyst
• Regional Intelligence Analyst (corporate)
• Competitive Intelligence Analyst (foreign markets)
• International Relations Manager
• Regional Risk Analyst
• Cultural Advisor/Consultant

Salary ranges:

• Entry-level: $70,000-$95,000
• Mid-level: $95,000-$135,000
• Senior-level: $135,000-$180,000
• Director-level: $180,000-$250,000+

What translates directly:

• Language skills for foreign market analysis
• Cultural expertise for international business
• Intelligence analysis methodologies applied to business intelligence
• Regional expertise valued by companies operating in your target region

Companies hiring:

• Multinational corporations operating in your language region
• Consulting firms (McKinsey, BCG, Deloitte—international practices)
• Financial services (JPMorgan, Goldman—foreign market analysis)
• Tech companies (expanding into foreign markets)
• Energy companies (international operations)

Best for: 35P linguists interested in business applications of language and intelligence skills, want private sector pay, and have entrepreneurial interest.

Defense Contractor Intelligence Analyst (Language-Enabled) (combining intelligence analysis + language)

Civilian job titles:

• All-Source Intelligence Analyst (language-qualified)
• Regional Intelligence Analyst
• Targeting Analyst (language specialty)
• Intelligence Analyst (CENTCOM/INDOPACOM/EUCOM)
• Cultural Advisor

Salary ranges:

• Entry-level: $85,000-$110,000
• Mid-level: $110,000-$145,000
• Senior-level: $145,000-$180,000

What translates directly: Your SIGINT training + language skills + regional expertise = highly competitive for regional intelligence analyst roles supporting geographic combatant commands.

Best for: 35P linguists wanting to transition from pure linguist work to broader intelligence analysis while leveraging language skills.

Required Certifications & Training

High Priority (Get These)

DLPT Scores (Defense Language Proficiency Test)

Document your current language proficiency levels. Critical for all government and contractor linguist positions.

• Cost: Free through military/DLIFLC
• Value: Determines language bonus amounts, hiring eligibility
• Action: Test before separation, get official score reports

Maintain TS/SCI Clearance

Your clearance + language skills are worth $30,000-$50,000 combined in salary premiums.

• Cost: $0 if you accept cleared job within 24 months
• Value: Required for 80% of high-paying linguist positions
• Action: Accept cleared position within 24 months to keep active

Bachelor's Degree (Language Studies, International Relations, Linguistics, or any field)

Increasingly required for federal positions, preferred for contractors and private sector.

• Cost: $0 with GI Bill
• Time: 2-4 years
• ROI: Opens federal positions, increases competitiveness
• Action: Enroll if you don't have one

Security+

Required for many defense contractor positions.

• Cost: $400-600
• Time: 2-6 weeks study
• Action: Complete 6-12 months before separation

Medium Priority (Career Enhancers)

ATA Certification (American Translators Association)

Professional certification for translators pursuing commercial translation careers.

• Cost: $300-525 exam
• Value: Professional credential for commercial translation
• Languages: Available for major language pairs

Court Interpreter Certification

State-specific certification for legal interpretation.

• Cost: Varies by state, typically $300-600
• Value: Required for federal/state court interpretation work
• Languages: Spanish, Arabic, Russian, Chinese (varies by state)

Advanced Language Training

Improving from ILR 2 to ILR 3, or adding second language.

• Cost: GI Bill covers language programs
• Value: Higher language bonuses ($10K-$20K increase annually)
• Programs: Defense Language Institute, Foreign Service Institute, intensive university programs, in-country immersion

Master's Degree (International Relations, Area Studies, Linguistics, Intelligence Studies)

Accelerates career to senior analyst or leadership positions.

• Cost: $0-40,000 with GI Bill
• ROI: Opens senior intelligence analyst, policy, and leadership roles
• Top programs: Georgetown, Johns Hopkins SAIS, Middlebury (languages), Monterey Institute

Regional/Cultural Certifications

Specialized training in regional expertise, cultural intelligence, or area studies.

• Value: Differentiates you for regional analyst roles

Low Priority (Nice to Have)

Localization/CAT Tool Training

Computer-Assisted Translation tools (SDL Trados, MemoQ, etc.) for commercial translation work.

• Cost: $500-2,000
• Value: Required for some translation agencies

Subtitle Translation Certification

Specialized training for media translation.

Medical/Legal Translation Certification

Specialized certifications for niche translation markets.

Companies & Agencies Actively Hiring 35P Veterans (100+)

Federal Intelligence Agencies

1. National Security Agency (NSA)
2. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)
3. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
4. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
5. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)
6. Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
7. US Cyber Command (USCYBERCOM)
8. National Reconnaissance Office (NRO)
9. State Department (Bureau of Intelligence & Research)
10. Defense Human Intelligence Service

Defense Contractors (Cryptologic Linguists)

11. Leidos
12. CACI International
13. Booz Allen Hamilton
14. BAE Systems
15. General Dynamics IT (GDIT)
16. SAIC
17. Peraton
18. ManTech International
19. L3Harris Technologies
20. Parsons Corporation
21. PAE
22. Amentum
23. KeyW Corporation
24. Translation Excellence, Inc.
25. ATS (Applied Technical Solutions)
26. DynCorp International
27. SOC International
28. Northrop Grumman
29. Raytheon Intelligence & Space
30. HII Mission Technologies

Translation & Interpretation Agencies

31. Lionbridge Technologies
32. TransPerfect
33. SDL (RWS Group)
34. LanguageLine Solutions
35. Interpreters Unlimited
36. CyraCom International
37. Language Services Associates
38. ALTA Language Services
39. Day Translations
40. Straker

Federal Law Enforcement & Immigration

41. FBI Field Offices (linguist positions)
42. DEA Offices (linguist positions)
43. ICE (Immigration & Customs Enforcement)
44. CBP (Customs & Border Protection)
45. US Citizenship & Immigration Services
46. Federal Courts (interpreter positions)
47. US Marshals Service
48. ATF (language specialists)
49. Secret Service (language specialists)
50. Homeland Security Investigations (HSI)

State Department & Diplomatic

51. State Department (contract interpreters)
52. USAID (international development, language specialists)
53. Foreign Service Institute
54. US Embassies worldwide (language positions)
55. Peace Corps (RPCV hiring with language skills)

Tech Companies (Localization)

56. Google (Translate, localization)
57. Microsoft (localization teams)
58. Amazon (AWS localization)
59. Apple (localization)
60. Meta/Facebook (language teams)
61. Netflix (subtitle/dubbing translation)
62. Disney (media translation)
63. LinkedIn (localization)
64. Airbnb (localization)
65. Uber (international localization)

International Business & Consulting

66. McKinsey & Company (regional practices)
67. Boston Consulting Group
68. Bain & Company
69. Deloitte (international risk)
70. PwC (international services)
71. EY (global services)
72. KPMG (international)
73. Accenture (global delivery)

Financial Services (International Operations)

74. JPMorgan Chase (international banking)
75. Goldman Sachs (global markets)
76. Bank of America (international)
77. Citigroup (global operations)
78. HSBC (multilingual banking)
79. Wells Fargo (international)
80. Morgan Stanley (global)

Media & Entertainment

81. CNN (language services)
82. BBC (language specialists)
83. Al Jazeera (multilingual news)
84. Reuters (language specialists)
85. Bloomberg (multilingual financial news)
86. The New York Times (foreign correspondents)
87. Discovery Channel (localization)

NGOs & International Organizations

88. United Nations (translation/interpretation)
89. World Bank (language specialists)
90. International Monetary Fund (IMF)
91. Red Cross/Red Crescent
92. Doctors Without Borders (Médecins Sans Frontières)
93. International Rescue Committee
94. CARE International
95. Save the Children

Education & Language Training

96. Defense Language Institute (civilian instructors)
97. Foreign Service Institute
98. Berlitz Language Centers
99. Rosetta Stone (language development)
100. Duolingo (language experts)

Salary Expectations & Geographic Considerations

By Experience Level

Entry-Level (0-3 years post-military):

• NSA: $102,000-$162,000 (base + locality + language bonus)
• Defense Contractors: $90,000-$120,000 + bonuses
• FBI Linguist: $85,000-$120,000
• Commercial Translation (freelance): $30,000-$70,000

Mid-Career (3-7 years):

• NSA: $145,000-$210,000 (total compensation)
• Defense Contractors: $120,000-$160,000
• Senior Translator: $70,000-$110,000

Senior-Level (7-12+ years):

• NSA: $195,000-$285,000+
• Defense Contractors: $160,000-$190,000
• Translation/Localization Manager: $90,000-$140,000

Language Bonus Value by Language (Examples)

Tier 1 Critical Languages (highest bonuses):

• Arabic (Modern Standard, Iraqi, Levantine, Gulf dialects): $15,000-$25,000 annually
• Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese): $15,000-$25,000
• Farsi/Persian: $15,000-$25,000
• Pashto: $15,000-$25,000
• Dari: $12,000-$20,000
• Korean: $12,000-$20,000
• Russian: $10,000-$18,000

Tier 2 Languages:

• Urdu: $8,000-$15,000
• Turkish: $8,000-$15,000
• Somali: $10,000-$18,000
• Indonesian/Malay: $8,000-$15,000

(Actual bonuses vary by employer, proficiency level, and current needs)

Top 10 Cities for 35P Careers

1. Fort Meade, Maryland (NSA)

• NSA, contractors
• Salary: $110,000-$220,000+ (with language bonuses)

2. Washington DC/Northern Virginia

• Federal agencies, contractors, State Department
• Salary: $100,000-$200,000

3. San Antonio, Texas

• NSA Texas, military intelligence
• Salary: $90,000-$160,000

4. Monterey, California (DLI)

• Defense Language Institute (civilian instructors)
• Salary: $80,000-$130,000

5. Augusta, Georgia

• NSA Georgia
• Salary: $95,000-$165,000

6. Tampa, Florida

• CENTCOM, SOCOM (linguist support)
• Salary: $90,000-$155,000

7. Pearl Harbor, Hawaii

• NSA Hawaii, INDOPACOM
• Salary: $95,000-$170,000

8. Colorado Springs, Colorado

• Space Force, cyber operations
• Salary: $90,000-$155,000

9. New York City

• UN, international business, media
• Salary: $85,000-$150,000

10. Anywhere (Remote Commercial Translation)

• Freelance translation
• Salary: $40,000-$120,000+

Transition Timeline & Action Plan

18-24 Months Before Separation:

• Apply to NSA (hiring takes 12-18 months)
• Take DLPT in all your languages (document scores officially)
• Start bachelor's degree if needed
• Research language-enabled career paths

12-18 Months Out:

• Apply to defense contractors on ClearanceJobs.com
• Maintain/improve language proficiency (study, immersion, online resources)
• Consider ATA certification if interested in commercial translation
• Network with former 35Ps on LinkedIn

6-12 Months Out:

• Get Security+ certification (required for contractors)
• Aggressive contractor applications (30-50 positions)
• Consider SkillBridge with NSA, contractor, or translation agency
• Prepare for polygraph

3-6 Months Out:

• Finalize job offers
• Prepare for relocation (most jobs at Fort Meade)
• Maintain language proficiency
• Get any additional language testing/certifications

Action Items This Week:

1. Apply to NSA at NSA.gov/careers
2. Get official DLPT score reports (all languages)
3. Register on ClearanceJobs.com with alerts for your languages
4. Connect with 30+ former 35Ps on LinkedIn
5. Document all linguistic and intelligence experience for resume

Your 35P language skills + SIGINT training + clearance = extremely high value. NSA desperately needs critical language speakers. Defense contractors are competing for linguists. Your language bonuses alone can add $15K-$25K annually. You've developed one of the most marketable skill combinations in the intelligence community. Start early, maintain clearance, improve language proficiency, and negotiate aggressively. You're worth $120K-$180K+ in the right position.

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Ready to join NSA as a cryptologic linguist? Apply TODAY at NSA.gov/careers. Your language skills + intelligence training = six-figure salary + bonuses. Don't wait—hiring takes 18+ months.